“There’s this very audacious thing about him”: A conversation between Jean Paul Gaultier and his new guest designer Ludovic De Saint Sernin

Ludovic de Saint Sernin will be the eighth guest designer for Jean Paul Gaultier. He is also the youngest. At the time he was born, in 1990, fashion’s original enfant terrible, then around 38-years-old, had presented his luscious Adam and Eve, Rastas Aujourd’hui (Rastas today) collection, which featured giddy male and female models walking as couples; the likes of Helena Christensen and Rossy de Palma in colourful suits, floral corsetry and dance-club ensembles. True to form, there was humour, performance and innuendo on a level we rarely see today.

Yet de Saint Sernin, who launched his label in 2017 and took the reins of Ann Demeulemeester for one season last year, designs from a provocative perch and his liberated ideas of gender and sexuality result in clothes that are sometimes minimalist, sometimes glam, often body-bearing. It takes no stretch of the imagination to see him exploring any number of Gaultier’s iconic creations.

On the metaphoric heels of Nicolas Di Felice (Julien Dossena and Simone Rocha among other recent alums), de Saint Sernin will be the first guest designer to show men’s looks. This will also be his first foray into haute couture, and even though the spring show is not until January, such immense preparation helps explain why he is skipping the runway this week.

Related: 5 Things to know about Julien Dossena's Jean Paul Gaultier AW23 Haute Couture show

Speaking exclusively with Vogue from Jean Paul Gaultier HQ, the designers embraced their generational divide, exuding a kind of ease that suggested they are like-minded – whether looking back or looking ahead.

Jean Paul, how did you discover Ludovic’s work?

"I only knew his work, not him personally. I am always interested in what new designers are doing. I remember that I was very surprised when I saw one of his first collections, because there was this very audacious thing about what he was doing with men. And I love that he makes this kind of provocation, but at the same time it’s interesting and nice and beautiful. So that’s when I said, ‘This one will be good.’"

And Ludovic, how does it feel to know that you were on Monsieur Gaultier’s radar?

"I mean, it’s incredible. I think the first time we met in person was backstage at a Dua Lipa concert. We were just these two girls enjoying an amazing gig. I told him how much I admire him, and it was just an amazing connection right away. I think my favourite thing in fashion is when you grow up referencing and being inspired by an icon and then one day you meet them – and then you work together! It’s the most incredible feeling to know that we’re doing this and that I have his blessing."

When did you start to talk about the project?

"We had a beautiful lunch before the summer and had a great conversation. And it gave me the confidence to know that I can do this and it’s such an incredible house to be able to take a part in."

How does the process actually play out? Ludovic, have you already started?

"Yes, I have. I was so excited when we confirmed it was happening that I immediately started sketching. I love to draw, and I take my time with it. I like to get into the spirit. I did a lot of research. And then, one day, I was in my home sketching, and I was like, ‘I know how I want to do it.’ And that’s the best feeling because then you get those goosebumps like, ‘Oh, this is going to come to life, this is the story I want to tell.’ I gave sketches to the atelier in July and now we’re seeing the first 12 looks."

Is this, may I ask, partly why you’ve decided not to stage a show this season?

LdSS: "I think I wanted to give my best. And I think it could be linked, but it’s also like this is what it was for the season. But there’s still a [Ludovic de Saint Sernin] collection and I’m super excited because it’s very new for me; I’m trying new things."

Jean Paul, now that there have been eight designers, would you say this concept works?

"Honestly, yes. It works a lot. When I left, I said I wanted the house to go on without me. But to take one designer – well, which one? This was an idea that I had a long time ago. I remember when Christian Lacroix left Jean Patou [in 1987]. And I thought, there should be one designer to make each collection. I went there because I had been an assistant in 1972 and I proposed this idea: Maybe to have Vivienne Westwood, Romeo Gigli – the people of the moment. And you know how they answered, so French: “Too expensive.” Anyway, so after that, I kept that idea because you see different interpretations, an evolution."

But I think that could only happen for a house that has such recognisable codes. I think you have to have enough of a history so that the designers can really come in and already understand the brand but then have enough to play with over time.

JPG: "Exactly. It might have been pretentious to have this idea; but it’s like a dream to have someone with their own personality and say something in what they do. Ludovic will do what he’s doing already, but for Gaultier."

If you could have done a one-time stint, which house would it have been for?

JPG: "I would have loved to do that at the time for Saint Laurent. Now it’s too late. But even Chanel. It was about having something that already says something. Now, it’s interesting to see the universe, and the other universe put together."

Ludovic, what were your first memories of Jean Paul Gaultier?

"I think my first memories are the perfume commercials. I remember growing up thinking, ‘Wow, that’s someone who knows how to tell a story.’ And it’s fashion, but it becomes part of the culture. One of the things that I admire the most about Jean Paul is that he is a designer, but he also became part of culture, pop culture, and took part in things that he believed in. He used his voice for causes and for fun and to liberate people. And I think that’s something that I can only do today because he did it before me. And to discover that you can be yourself in fashion, that you can have your own voice and uniqueness and be proud of it. He built a community around himself way before Instagram and social media."

That’s a good point.

LdSS: "And it’s really interesting to be able to build this connection, because he was able to be the face of his brand and have people communicate with him directly. We’ve been out and people just come up to him like they know him. And I think it’s a very generous way of approaching the role of a fashion designer. And I try to do the same thing; I try to emulate that feeling as well. So I think we have so much in common."

Jean Paul, does each designer reveal something new to you?

Definitely, yes. Sacai is Japanese, so of course she is making something different. So she took some of my things and made them in a deconstructed way. Glenn Martens did a beautiful collection, but it was more strict. Me, sometimes, I go more on that way and sometimes it is not readable, let’s say, because it’s too much of a different orientation. I was admiring what he did. Each designer has brought their own thing, just as Ludovic will bring something.

Have you shared these sketches already?

LdSS: No…

JPG: And it’s better like that. I want to be surprised. If I had been doing this for Mr Saint Laurent and he was there, I would have been devastated, like, ‘My God, I cannot do that, maybe he will not like this,’ instead of thinking about my view of his style. I want him to be free and to believe in himself.

Ludovic, you are also now trying your hand at couture.

I love working with the atelier. I love making pieces by hand. I love the whole craftsmanship. I’ve had this passion since I was at Balmain with Olivier [Rousteing]. And the runway is going to be so exciting. I can already visualise it, and I fantasise about it. But beyond that, it’s also the experience of knowing that you are offering these pieces to incredible clients. These pieces are going to live and inspire people and they’re going to be part of history for the house. And then creating a custom piece for celebrities is so exciting. I already have one in mind. That’s my goal for after the show that I’m manifesting.

When I think about the overlap and why, Jean Paul, you might have gravitated towards Ludovic’s work, I think of the emphasis on the body and the lacing. What is the attraction for both of you in something that feels subversive, a little fetish…?

I am older than him, so it comes from different reasons. First of all, when I first saw my grandmother’s corset, I didn’t know what it was. The colour of flesh with the satin, the lacing up. And she told me the story about taking some vinegar to have a stomach contraction in order to lace up and have a smaller waist, so I always remembered that. And I remember a kind of musical in New York that was supposed to be set in the 1920s or ’30s and they were all dressed in salmon because this was lingerie. I [observed] young girls looking at this and loving it and so I thought, ‘Maybe it’s good I can make a dress from a bra or a corset.’ You have to be the reflection of what’s happening and what some people want. I was not wanting them to suffer. But it was also this moment after unisex dressing, and I wanted to make the shape of the woman and to show it again. It was the moment with Beatrice Dalle and also Madonna who wanted to wear this.

Ludovic, it did occur to me that you might be manifesting Madonna for this…

LdSS: "Maybe I am. I mean, did you see that I’m blonde now? I think what’s interesting also is that Jean Paul became really famous for the corset, and I became really famous for my eyelet briefs. Really quickly, we found a piece that was immediately recognisable, which we both could build an entire world from. And it came from a genuine passion of trying to express fashion in a new way and in a different way. Originally for me, I studied womenswear and I thought I was going to be doing that exclusively. And then understanding that fashion could be also a personal story was a huge breakthrough for me. And this is when I decided that my first collection was going to be boys wearing womenswear – but for it to not feel like they were cross-dressing. They were actually believable in these clothes, and it inspired both men and women to wear the same pieces. And so this is following Jean Paul’s perspective for sure."

JPG: "The skirt for men. I tried to make them look masculine, but it’s something that is feminine, kind of."

LdSS: "I think it was also about gender at that time. From my experience, I grew up a bit conservative in the 16th arrondissement being very sheltered. And I was like, ‘Oh, but these typical men’s clothes don't really fit me or my silhouette, and I want to show my body.’ And I think what happened was all the clothes that I saw as a teenager were being worn by incredible women who I admired. But then putting them on a guy is all of a sudden like, ‘Oh, wow, I didn’t think that could be a thing.’"

Ludovic, do you think that this will also define your collections going forward?

"It’s interesting because I obviously started working on the current collection before I knew I was going to do the couture in January. But now I’m working on both at the same time. And so I’m looking at so much of Gaultier’s history. And I wonder if people will try to see the similarities. When you go into a different house, you learn a different way of looking at the clothes, of constructing the garments, of thinking of patterns that are unique to Jean Paul. And it will definitely influence how I work in the future, whether I know it or not."

Between your time at Ann Demeulemeester and now for Jean Paul Gaultier, somehow you bridge two entirely different aesthetics.

"Yeah. I mean I think I have my own point of view. And I think I grew up adoring fashion and I know these houses by heart. If I can get my hands on the archive, try clothes on, see how they feel, I get it really quite quickly and I get into it with so much genuine passion. And I want to pay tribute to this. Whether Ann or Jean Paul, the way I see it is, ‘What would they do today if they were my age and with the current experience that we’re living now?’"

Can you give us a hint?

"No, no, no! There’s something that I can’t believe hasn’t been referenced yet. That to me, as a Frenchy, is a huge reference for me that people haven’t quite picked up on. And I’m really looking forward to this."

Did you really go blonde just for this moment?

LdSS: "I wanted to be blonde by the time we shot together. I started two months ago, and I’ve been blonde for a week or two."

JPG: "How do you feel being blonde?"

LdSS: "I love it. I’ve been working a lot, so I haven’t had any fun yet. But I hope I will."

This interview has been condensed and edited for length and clarity.